From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V2 #54 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Thursday, 31 August 1995 Volume 02 : Number 054 TABLE OF CONTENTS Nils Weinander DI Tim Leask RQ Rules Digest: V2 #53 David Cake RQ Rules Digest: V2 #53 Craig K Heroic Retreats Craig K DI Craig K [none] Sandy Petersen retreat and heroism Nigel Smith Heroic Retreats from Chaos Chris Johnson Humakt: Tis a good day to die ANDOVER@delphi.com DI and Humakt Brian Tickler Humakti DI... RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. When paraphrasing you demonstrate exactly how well you understand the point someone was trying to make. 4. There is no number 4. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nils Weinander Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 08:37:55 +0200 Subject: DI Keith Craig: >May favourite example of a heroic retreat is the case were a Roman soldier >(I always forget his name) defended a bridge against an army, single handed. Horatius Cocles vs the etruscan army of king Lars Porsenna. _____ David Cake: >And more importantly - what sort of attitude do you have to DI in >your games? It sounds like the GMs regard it as a loophole for players to >exploit, that should be stomped on so the GM can kill more of them - while I >regard it as a loophole that the GM can exploit to stop from accidentally >killing his favourite PCs when he misjudges their abilities or they have bad >luck. A way to fudge without actually changing the dice rolls? Sounds most reasonable! However, it seems like lots of GMs see the players as adversaries, not as co-creators of the saga which is unfolding as the campaign progresses. If the players play their characters true to culture and cult, they won't abuse DI. If they do abuse it, perhaps out of ignorance, point it out that DI isn't appropriate and explain why. ________________________________________________________________________ Nils W | And in the east the sun is rising... Office: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se | Home: nilsw@ibm.net ------------------------------ From: Tim Leask Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:46:58 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V2 #53 > From: Graydon > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:29:49 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Humakti courage > > > I'd say that becoming a Sword is one of the easiest Rune Lord sets of > requirements to meet - all the required skills are things you actually > *use*, and they all go up fairly steadily through use. I'd also say that > the required ten points of POW in divine spells gets our friendly Sword > one sever spirt, one berserk, one truesword, and five points of shield, > plus spirit magic. Seems like a pretty good job of 'taking care of' to me. You are kidding right. In any campaign I played in RQ2 or RQ3 becoming a Sword was the toughest Rune level to achieve. The fact that you have to master many weapons makes it harder to get the necessary skills not easier. Nearly always you will have a "best" weapon skill. To get an experience check you should use a skill successfully in a stressful/risky situation. Going in to combat wielding your dagger (40%) instead of your bastard sword (60%) isn't going to do much for your odds of surviving the combat. Of course if you have a GM who'll let you change weapons every round and get a check for each weapon then the task is much easier, but that would be muchkin play and would require munchkin GMing. One of my former GM's would only allow experience checks for one weapon skill in combat unless there was a legimate reason for changing weapons, e.g. you fumbled and dropped your primary weapon or your primary weapon was broken. Even getting the 10 points of rune magic can be tough. We found that the only way to accumulate rune magic was to sacrifice for non combat magic such as Worship Humakt, Sanctify, Spell Teaching or Divination. If you sacrificed for True Sword, Spirit Block or Heal Wound you knew it would get cast before very long. On top of that no D.I. to bring you back to life during the long risky road to Sword status. Wind Lords were the easiest rune level to make. Other cults such as Yemalio have gifts such as weapon mastery to help you on your way. Humakti are like replicants. They tend to burn twice as brightly for half as long. [funny aside] MOB once told me of a campaign he played in which he and another player planned to fake a dispute which would result in a duel between the PC's in which he would use 19 skills in the one combat. The GM would think they were trying to kill eachother but it was all pre-choreographed and they would get up to 19 skill checks for their trouble! I don't know whether or not the plan was ever put into action. =============================================================================== Advanced Service Applications Centre /*\__/\ "Anyone can hold the helm when CITRI < \ the sea is calm." 723 Swanston St, \ _ _/ -- Publilius Syrus Carlton, \| -- Victoria, AUSTRALIA, 3053 Phone: +61 3 9282 2439 e-mail: tsl@citri.edu.au =============================================================================== ------------------------------ From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:25:00 +0800 Subject: Re: RQ Rules Digest: V2 #53 >[funny aside] MOB once told me of a campaign he played in which he and another >player planned to fake a dispute which would result in a duel between the PC's >in which he would use 19 skills in the one combat. The GM would think they >were trying to kill eachother but it was all pre-choreographed and they would >get up to 19 skill checks for their trouble! I don't know whether or not the >plan was ever put into action. Anecdote alert! We have the one player who is notorious for managing to justify using as many weapons as possible in each combat (Sean Foster, some of you will meet him at RQ Con DU). He is also notorious for playing Storm Bull maniacs. Recently two PCs, Lunar citizens, where investigating an attack, where women and children of a Lunar breeding program involving chaos (sort of a government sanctioned Black Rock) had all been attacked and slaughtered. They immediately knew it was him because it was one attacker who had used a wide variety of weapons.... But on the subject of duels, there is also a famous duel where the Wind Lord antagonised the Humakti so much that he felt that honour was only satisfied by a duel to first blood. But he didn't want to make it the start of a lasting feud, so he decided the weapons would be great hammers, which neither of them had ever used before. It took a long time, at base 5%. Cheers David Computing Officer | Arts Faculty | Uni. of Western Australia | ------------------------------ From: Craig K Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 08:43:00 BST Subject: Re: Heroic Retreats >If you are going to allow Humakti's to DI away from opponents, then surely >SB's should be allowed to run from Chaos, for much the same reasons. The >"foam at that mouth Berserker squad" may be unsubtle, irrational and >pigheaded, but anyone who plays them as dumb is short-changing them. They >couldn't have survived Prax if they were stupid. >And of all opponents, Chaos is the one most likely to be a lot stronger >than you first thought. I don't believe SBs are stupid, certainly ours aren't. SBs have survived on the plains so long by their sheer tenacity. Their reputation is such that all fear and respect them. However they are a tightly focused cult in that they are protectors of the people from foul chaos. This is what defines them as a cult separate from others plains cults like Waha or fighting cults like Orlanth. It is also why plains people put up with such an unruly and irrational group. New warriors join SB to fight chaos. If SBs were to flee from chaos voluntarily then their whole role in society would be threatened. Why would plains people put up with SBs if they are not different than the other fighting cults like Orlanth who's worshippers are probably less hassle. But SBs ARE different. As it says in the write up of the Block in RQ Adventurers, all Praxian tribes have had Stormbull representatives and are proud of their heritage and struggle against chaos. I wouldn't let SBs retreat from chaos because it threatens the cult's whole infra-structure and our SB players appreciate this. We do let SBs flee from non-chaos foes (they don't normally do it) but their rationality goes out the window when they meet chaos. By contrast we play Humaktii as a cultured warriors who have a wealth of tactical appreciation. They have a role in the social structure which is not as tightly focused as Stormbull and hence have no need to fight the impossible fight. I guess if you are playing a tighter defined Humakt cult then they too might be limited. Keith K.Craig@lancaster.ac.uk Chalana Arroy Initiate: Bless Soul - "So what are those Runes on your forehead then." Humakt Initiate: Magnus SharpSword - " Well this one, this is good rune. It's DEATH! But this one, the one on the left, it's really special. It's DEATH as well." ------------------------------ From: Craig K Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 09:04:00 BST Subject: RE: DI >>Keith Craig: >>May favourite example of a heroic retreat is the case were a Roman soldier >>(I always forget his name) defended a bridge against an army, single handed. >Horatius Cocles vs the Etruscan army of king Lars Porsenna. Thank you. >A way to fudge without actually changing the dice rolls? Sounds most >reasonable! However, it seems like lots of GMs see the players as adversaries, >not as co-creators of the saga which is unfolding as the campaign progresses. I think most people have been guilty of this at sometime, especially if you started playing quite young. It seems to take a while to realise that a GM is always in the position to kill the characters so there's no fun in it. Some never do. Our GM often uses DI to rescue his nearest and dearest too. Having spent several days stating up a classic NPC only to have him/her killed on the first blow can be a bit soul destroying, especially if the rest of the adventure was written around that character. DI can be a good get out clause to keep the plot flowing. I often think its like old black and white Flash Gordon episodes where Flash is always about to die just at the end of each episode but make a miraculous escape at the start of the next one just to keep excitement of the story running. Anyone wanna speculate on how much POW Flash has left ? 8-> Keith K.Craig@lancaster.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: Craig K Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 10:27:00 BST Subject: [none] Soliders of the Red Moon Player Book - Sometime '95 $11.65 Soliders of the Red Moon GM Guide - Sometime '95 $14.35 I have just seen these advertised on the net in an On-line roleplaying shop. Does anyone know what they are likely to contain? K.Craig@lancaster.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: Sandy Petersen Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 09:21:59 -0500 Subject: Re: retreat and heroism On the general subject of DI'ing to retreat >in the Odyssey, Ulysses(spelling?) and his crew flee the cyclops > Later he and his crew sail past both the Sirens and Scylla without >stopping. All of these are instances of flight yet they are held up >as great heroic acts. Ulysses is a trickster figure, not a warrior-hero. >Hercules fleeing from the underworld ,or in the Bible Lots escape >from Sodom are similarly viewed, Lot is also not portrayed as heroic, but as righteous. Hercules "flight" from the underworld included his taking Cerberus with him, so it was not as precipitate as all that. >May favourite example of a heroic retreat is the case were a Roman >soldier (I always forget his name) defended a bridge against an army Horatius. Note that he heroically stayed until it was time to leave. I would not object to a Humakti DIing out of danger if he stayed to fight for a specific purpose, and DIing once that purpose was fully accomplished. Sure there's lots of cases of courageous retreats both in legend and real history. But for every Chosin Reservoir there is an Alamo, for every Horatius there is a Samson. In Cults of Prax it recommends that a Sword of Humakt is the guy you want to hold the hopeless position, to take on the impossible tasks. It's not because he can DI out of trouble. ------------------------------ From: ns10005@hermes.cam.ac.uk (Nigel Smith) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:38:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Heroic Retreats from Chaos Good stuff from Keith 'bout how Storm Bulls fit into Praxian society, but... I take issue with the fact that SB's are different because they do not run from Chaos. They are different 'cos they actively seek Chaos to destroy, in emmulation of their god. Most sane people in Glorantha steer clear of Chaos, even your average Orlanthi will avoid Chaos if possible, though oaths of fealty, protection, etc. may force them into a confrontation. But SB's go after these awful creatures, hunt them down and *try* to kill them. I see nothing wrong with allowing SB's to DI out if they misjudge their opponent. I feel that (one of) the most difficult thing(s) to represent in RQ is the gut-churning, will-sapping, knee-knocking, brain-scrambling shock of coming up against even the lowliest Chaos monster. SB's power is in being able to confront these things where others would run or cower. Nigel ------------------------------ From: "Chris Johnson [RQ]" Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 08:52:05 -0800 Subject: Humakt: Tis a good day to die [decloaking...] WORF: It's a *good* day to die. DATA: So you want to die today? WORF: I'm not afraid of death, but I enjoy living! DATA: So you _don't_ want to die today? WORF: I want death to find me in *GLORIOUS* battle. DATA: So you wish to die a soldiers death? WORF: Klingons are *WARRIORS* not mere soldiers! [...cloaking engaged] Two Humakti sterotypes are (IMHO): STTNG Klingons and Mythical Japan's Samuri. Chris Johnson rq@flamal.ssd.loral.com PS: I seem to remember from somewhere (maybe Cults Of Prax) that: YELM makes soldiers HUMAKT makes warriors ORLANTH makes heros ------------------------------ From: ANDOVER@delphi.com Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DI and Humakt In our campaigns, we never use DI to fudge: it is the will of the Gods, and the dice determine it, since not even the DM can presume to know what Gods think. Our players rarely play Humakti, since they do like to get resurrected! (not that it is always possible: and every dead character has lost stats and skills). The only Humakti priest (RQ 2 rules) we got (he started with 18 POW) was killed by a Scorpionman on the way OUT of Snakepipe Hollow! The way I would play this Humakti DI we are talking about is how the fight fits into the goals of the PC: if it is an engagement on the way to get "The One Ring" a DI out would make plenty of sense! If it is the "Final Conflict" it wouldn't. Humakt can't figure out what is going on, but he can interpret the emotions of the PC making the prayer, and would make his decision on the basis of that information. The quote that Chris Johnson was looking for comes from Cults of Prax, page 52: "Humakt builds warriors -- the Sun Dome trains soldiers." Orlanth isn't mentioned. But the context of the quote is that Humakti often provide leadership for groups of Sun Domers. I don't think that commanders are Looking for Death: they just won't avoid it when it finally comes. But by definition all their skills help them to avoid Death! My own definition, then, is that, like the Old Klingon Warriors in ST:DS9 there is "a good day to die." What Humakti most want to avoid is dying in bed! Jim Chapin ------------------------------ From: tickler@netcom.com (Brian Tickler) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Humakti DI... There are far too many posts on the subject to respond to individually, but one question keeps entering my mind as I read them... Why does everyone seem to think that Humakt and/or Stormbull, along with all their worshippers, are single-minded idiots? In my opinion: 1. Humakti values of courage and honor do not equate with foolhardiness and stupidity. A Sword of Humakt does not have to lie on the ground bleeding and waiting for Scorpion venom to reach his heart just because he was unlucky and took a critical tail to the abdomen. Humakt does not sit around waiting with glee to rake in the souls of his departed worshippers. 2. All Stormbull worshippers are not mindless berserk killing machines. They can actually think. Now when they *decide* to *become* mindless berserk killing machines, that's another story...but if Stormbulls were all as one-dimensional as some people are making them out to be, then every Stormbull in Dragon Pass and Prax would be marching for Peloria to die facing the Crimson Bat... My point is: people who belong to these cults are as capable of rational thought as any other cult. They are capable of having conflicting/complex motivations/reactions. In short, they are not cardboard cutouts with "HUMAKTI" or "STORMBULL" (it'll be a cold day in Hell before I start calling them "Uroxi") stamped on their foreheads...stereotypes can be applied to these cults, but, as always, these stereotypes are just generalizations that cannot be applied on a individual basis. - -- Brian T. Tickler E-Mail: tickler@netcom.com ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V2 #54 ****************************** This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. 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