From: owner-rq-rules-digest To: rq-rules-digest@hops.wharton.upenn.edu Subject: RQ Rules Digest: V1 #108 Reply-To: rq-rules Errors-To: owner-rq-rules-digest Precedence: bulk Content-Return: Prohibited Return-Path: owner-rq-rules-digest RQ Rules Digest: Wednesday, 22 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 108 RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to say "Yeah, I agree." Those who do will be lynched. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. RQR: will be prepended to it. 3. Do not engage in a point-by-point analysis or rebuttal of another person's message. It is too confusing for others to follow, qualifies as nit-picking, and it usually leads to flame wars. 4. There is no number 4. TABLE OF CONTENTS Steven E Barnes Blow Away Befuddle an204796@anon.penet.fi The Crimson Greg Hugh Foster RQ Package Art Hugh Foster RQ and Chaos SPerrin@aol.com The Divination Spell Turi... SPerrin@aol.com RQ Cover Art SPerrin@aol.com RQR: Magic systems SPerrin@aol.com The source of Power SPerrin@aol.com Options during character gen SPerrin@aol.com Bonewits and RQ SPerrin@aol.com Glorantha GURPS SPerrin@aol.com Glorantha Game ANDOVER@delphi.com Cover art, Befuddle Steven E Barnes Cover art, Befuddle SPerrin@aol.com RQ and Chaos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:43:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Blow Away Befuddle Steve Perrin writes: >Ray Turney and I were talking at DunDraCon about the possibility of perhaps >turning what is currently (RQ3) "spirit magic" into two categories of "common >magic" and "spirit magic." The former would be RQ2-sytle battle magic and >would essentially be telekinesis type spells like Bladesharp and Protection. >Spirit Magic would involve the "psychic" powers like Befuddle and Demoralize. >Where Disruption would fit is an interesting question and goes back to an old It looks to me like you have two goals here: one is to restrict the proliferation of certain spells such as Befuddle (which Ray feels dominates combat too much). RQ:AiG handles this problem quite nicely, IMHO. The other is to justify the use of the term "spirit magic"... My current take on the issue is that "battle magic" is a lesser form or rune magic. You can learn them, in a similar fashion as learning divine spells (mini-heroquest ritual). You don't get Befuddle unless you worship a god of Disorder or Illusion (well, maybe the Harmony gods have a similar spell which causes you to bliss-out for the duration of the spell). The upper limit of variable spells is also determined by your cult status, and the runic associations of the god (as in RQ:AiG) (By the way, I also believe that divine spells need a stacking limit re-instated) The shamanistic version of it is called "spirit magic" because it is common for the shaman / student to gain the abilities from spirits, either through negotiation, wager, or force. The recipient is able to steal the spell knowledge, because the transaction occurs on the Heroplane (although the shamans might call it something else). If the questor loses the contest, the spirit can take something from him (spell knowledge, POW) or curse hiim. - -steve ------------------------------ From: an204796@anon.penet.fi Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 21:11:47 UTC Subject: The Crimson Greg From the RuneQuest Rules Discussion on Feb 09 1995: > Oddly enough, one of the barriers to using the Runes in Gloranthan > sorcery is probably Greg. While he was originally came up with this idea, > he has now changed his mind. So don't expect overwhelming enthusianm for > runic sorcery systems. But Greg can be convinced. It just occurred to me that Greg Stafford is the Crimson Bat of the RuneQuest community. Sandy Petersen, Steve Perrin and others have the skill Greg Mastery and keep him in line. But accidents do happen, and occasionally Greg goes out of control and creates Chaos Features (such as Elmal) or ravages parts of the Empire (invalidating months of playtesting efforts). Just as the Red Emperor is hostage to the clique of the Crimson Bat cult hierarchy to minimize havoc, Avalon Hill must cater to the Chaosium cabal to prevent Greg from running amok. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. ------------------------------ From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com> Date: 22 Feb 95 17:07:03 EST Subject: RQ Package Art >>So, do people like the RQ3 cover art? Do they prefer the combat-oriented RQ2 art to the exploration-oriented RQ3 art? << As some of you might have twigged, my historical tastes lie largely in the dark ages. As a result, the celtic/saxon/vike influences (and impressive authenticity, no 3' horns on helmets thank Odin!) appealed to me greatly, and really helped set the mood for RQ in my style. The pseudo-classic-greek style of the RQ2 stuff helped seal my view of Glorantha - and differentiate in my mind between the two. (I'm one who would not overly mourn the seperation, but let's not go back to that here). Both seem far more realistic and relateable to to me than the half-Tolkein, half-pseudo-medieval, part-odd-shaped-women art of D&D et al. I note more and more people praising the Vike module. ARE YOU LISTENING CHAOSIUM ? You don't have to go overboard, but I still think do this day that a scatter of environment packs dealing with Earth cultures (Vikes, Celts, Romans, Aztecs, Crusaders, etc, etc) would surely be fairly cheap to produce (look at the D&D equivalent, not much heftier than a Dragon magazine and _packed_ with value!) and would give novice GMs like we all were a more understandable jump-off point. It's far easier going from D&D to RQ Vikes to Glorantha than doing it in one; keeping the Alternate Earth going would IMHO increase RQ's player base. ------------------------------ From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com> Date: 22 Feb 95 17:07:20 EST Subject: RQ and Chaos >>Nah, the chaos has always been there. << True! But up to now it has always been an adult, and very Glorantha, version of Chaos. RQ's Chaos is very different in flavour to GW or even Moorcock Chaos. In games like Warhammer it's "big evil guys with lots of black armour and spikes" (ever see a Warhammer figure ?) whereas with RQ I always saw Chaos almost as an Element, like storms or earthquakes, rather than an excuse for odd-looking people. I mean, where would you find Ralzakark on a WH battle table ? Let's keep a mature Chaos and not descend to WH levels. I have actually seen leads for Chaos Imperial Halflings, clad in spiky armour and measuring a scale 6' or so. I kid you not. Another spark into an oil barrel; D&D is wildly popular and is on revision 2. RQ is struggling (face it) and is on rev 4, with people already talking about 5. Discuss..... ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:16:33 -0500 Subject: Re: The Divination Spell Turi... Guy and David, Doesn't this discussion belong on the Glorantha list? What does it have to do with "da rulz"? Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:16:45 -0500 Subject: Re: RQ Cover Art I feel a need to say that the _real_ RQ2 cover art was done by my wife, Luise, and had a fully-armored female fighting a much more menacing looking lizard. The Games Workshop version was an abomination and just the sort of sexist crap that the original cover was trying to counter. Gives you a picture of what GW thought would sell the game to the British consumer. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:17:05 -0500 Subject: Re: RQR: Magic systems Nils suggests in response to comments by Jeorg on comments of mine-- >>>...if we start looking at magic rules from the POV of a gaming world instead of extrapolating game world views of magic from the rules I think that there are lots of different ways to do magic...<< >>I think the rules should contain descriptions of the effects (spells) you can do with personal magic of various degrees, with divinely gifted magic etc. and then describe a couple of 'local applications'. The Glorantha book can then describe how the magic meta-rules are mapped to Gloranthan cultures, e.g. in the theistic cultures in central Genertela personal magic is taught by the cults, the shamanic hsunchen use helper spirits etc.<< >>What I am getting at is a meta-system for magic which can be _easily_ tailored to a culture. You shouldn't need to do anything more than specify how magic is gained and used and which effects/spells are appropriate for the culture.<< I think this is what we should be searching for, indeed. For RQ, I think it should all have to do with manipulations of POW, the person's tie into the supernatural world of spirit. RQ already does this to some extent, but maybe it needs to be more formalized and, as Nils suggests, a basic meta-system developed that would allow for similar effects whether done by god, wizard, or spirit, with rationales of why they actually come out differently. The problem here can be getting too close to the genericized Hero system concept of all-effects-are-the-save-the-only-difference-is-the- special-effects. Needs more thought. Suggestions? Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:17:20 -0500 Subject: Re: The source of Power akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) writes: >>I'm still trying to figure out DI... But my current viewpoint is that all divine and spiritual manefestations are caused by the concious or unconcious thoughts of mortals. Gods and spirits do not actually exist. Most cultures do not realize this, of course. Obviously, this is not how the majority of gamers view Glorantha...<< And, of course, all magic is really just psionic powers... >>The other idea was that every memory, personal relationship, or possession has part of your Power invested in it. Most of such things are not significant enough to represent investment of an actual point of POW. The idea is that by sacrificing, or renouncing these things, the magician can gain a temporary boost in Power. Likewise, an enemy can exploit these relationships against you. >>Also, by denying your physical self, through fasting or sexual abstinence, you can also derive some mystical benefit.<< Oh boy, tantric POW! :) Actually, some very interesting ideas. >>By the way, if anyone can recommend any good books about real-world magical systems, which describe terms such as Contagion in a straight foreward manner, I would be grateful.<< As has been stated before, getting ahold of a copy of Bonewtiz's _Real Magic_ will pretty well cover the issue. Some thoughtful twists on the basic principles here. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:21:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Options during character gen Mau's suggestions are, of course, very similar to those in the Hero and GURPS systems and, to a lesser extent, the Storyteller system. Does anyone have theories on how this would fit the RQ system. One possibility that occurs to me is an adaptation of the RQ4 system of age categories to determine the level of experience of the character to start. Since the age taken determines how good the initial adventurer may be, perhaps there should be problems (regular enemies, physical problems, psych problems, etc.) that have to be taken to get the benefits of the initial experience? Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:21:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Bonewits and RQ Actually, Isaac's book came out when Chaosium was just getting into roleplaying and RuneQuest. It was essentially a method of making up magic on the fly using "real" magic principles like similarity and contiguity (sp?). I thought it very clumsy--there is nothing of it except for some _very_ basic magical principles in RuneQuest. Others have played games using the very loose rules (mostly with Isaac present) and had a good time. The book (Authentic Thaumaturgy) was never reprinted and didn't sell very well in the first place. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:21:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Glorantha GURPS Forest Johnson claims that he was fired from Steve Jackson Games many years ago because he said about GURPS - --Why are we playing RuneQuest with d6s?-- Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:22:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Glorantha Game I have heard from several unofficial sources that Chaosium is going to do its own Glorantha Game. Greg has said as much, but was much less positive about when this would happen or how definite it would be. Game mechanics would probably be either BRP (i.e. pseudo RuneQuest) or Pendragonish. AIG, if that is the eventual title, will have rule discussions, but only about adapting the "generic" rules of RQ4 to the specific world of Glorantha. Mostly, the book is a sort of "culture pack" introducing the new player to Glorantha as a possible place to play the game. Most of it will not be new, but a lot of stuff that has been in a lot of other supplements will be gathered into this volume. As far as I can tell, Oliver and Mike are soliciting the actual elements of the book, then shipping it to me for the editing and additional materials. My impression is that it will primarily concern itself with a definitive picture of the Dragon Pass area, but this is based primarily on my knowledge that Dave Dunham's Grazelander material will be part of it. Just who is writing the other material and what it will be about is as yet unknown to me. One part that is intended for the book, however, is the specific-to-culture character creation material (suitably altered to fit Greg's vision) that was in RQ:AIG. Just how generic the RQ4 character creation material will be is still unknown to me. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ From: ANDOVER@delphi.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:14:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cover art, Befuddle Two different cover art suggestions: The Crimson Bat and the dragon approaching each other (before they fight and slay each other) while both sides in the siege watch; alternately: four views of different things on Glorantha/Fantasy Earth (shades of the latest Tom Petty video!) > As to Befuddle, this is a case where my usual impassioned plea for backwards compatibility will not be heard: isn't it basically a bad idea, too powerful a spell for normal combat (i.e. RQ's equivalent of the cursed D & D sleep spell?). If any spell is to be dropped, this one would head my list! Jim Chapin ------------------------------ From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 16:27:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Cover art, Befuddle >Two different cover art suggestions: The Crimson Bat and the dragon >approaching each other (before they fight and slay each other) while >both sides in the siege watch; alternately: four views of different >things on Glorantha/Fantasy Earth (shades of the latest Tom Petty >video!) RQ is about people, not giant monster fights... > As to Befuddle, this is a case where my usual impassioned plea for >backwards compatibility will not be heard: isn't it basically a bad >idea, too powerful a spell for normal combat (i.e. RQ's equivalent of >the cursed D & D sleep spell?). If any spell is to be dropped, this >one would head my list! Learn Dispel Magic (see also my previous suggestions) Our GM also gives the target an INTx1 roll to realize he has been befuddled, at which point he can dispell it, if he knows how. (No, none of this RQ3 try and fail an INTx5 roll crap) - -steve ------------------------------ From: SPerrin@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:36:12 -0500 Subject: Re: RQ and Chaos Hugh Foster opins: >>Another spark into an oil barrel; D&D is wildly popular and is on revision 2. RQ is struggling (face it) and is on rev 4, with people already talking about 5. Discuss.....<< Well, there are a number of answers... 1. AD&D 2nd Ed. is actually the third edition, counting the original D&D. Perhaps it could even be called the 4th edition, considering that the current version of D&D is a major revision of the original rules as well. I think the original publication of AD&D is what inspired everyone else to do new versions of games. 2. The TSR attitude was to issue a new rulebook with a new name (Unearthed Arcana, etc.) when they had some changes to make. Other companies do this as well (remember Hero's Champions II, Champions III, etc. adaptations to their 2nd edition rules before they did the 3rd and 4th editions). 3. The Powers That Were at TSR (Gygax, the Blumes, etc.) figured they had a good thing, it would be a lot of trouble to fix anything, and didn't want to mess with it. At the Chaosium, we figured that if we had some necessary changes, it was time to make them. RQ probably would have been revised even without the AH deal, though probably not so drastically. Steve Perrin ------------------------------ End of RQ Rules Digest: V1 #108 ******************************* This is the bottom of the RuneQuest Rules Digest. RuneQuest is a trademark of Avalon Hill, and Glorantha is a trademark of Chaosium. 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