From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 07 Apr 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Initiation, Tribal or o/w. Message-ID: <9404060825.AA23127@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 6 Apr 94 08:25:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3526 A final (?) belated (!) shot in the Initiation firefight... David "Autofire Find Weakness" Dunham () said: > Alex asked me > >I take it means you think initiation into tribe and religion is done as a > >_single_ ritual, then, not merely that both are required for Adulthood? > Or at least two rituals virtually back-to-back (depending on holy days). It > just seems that you're not an adult until you're a religious initiate. I > haven't worked out all the ramifications (e.g. the Lhankor Mhy apprentice). I'm certainly not inclined to get zealous about this issue; rather I think the published information is so vague as to admit no definitive conclusion either way. Perhaps it needs to be Gregged. The only clear reference I find is in the RQ Magic Book, of all places, which states that "it is a traditional sign of adulthood", which is still some way short of an absolute requirement. I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10). This leaves open the question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so, whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation. Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is possible. But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great. A back-of-an- envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success. What happens if he fails? Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year, and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)? It seems more likely to me that certain `traditional' clans would require initiation to a _particular_ deity (most obviously, Orlanth or Ernalda, according to chosen path), while in more `modern' clans it would be (at least theoretically) optional. The requirement `be initiated to a diety, any deity' seems a little artificial to me, given the differing importance of different deities, and the differing meanings of initiation into them. (Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.) One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this requirement, for their particular `family' god. This would make some sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only secondarily into clan or tribe. This is a bit rough on people not wanting to follow the family tradition, mind you. On the subject of bloodlines: someone stated that tribal kings had to belong to particular royal bloodlines; anyone have a reference to this in published material? (I found one declaring this to be the case at the Kingdom level, but not that I could see otherwise.) > BTW, I'd consider it sad if Griffin Island is let go out of print. It could be rereprinted as G, Mountain, right? I'm sure nobody much would mind it being `deblanked'. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Initiation, tribal or o/w. Message-ID: <9404052125.AA21992@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 5 Apr 94 21:25:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3527 A final (?) belated (!) shot in the Initiation firefight... David "Autofire Find Weakness" Dunham () said: > Alex asked me > >I take it means you think initiation into tribe and religion is done as a > >_single_ ritual, then, not merely that both are required for Adulthood? > Or at least two rituals virtually back-to-back (depending on holy days). It > just seems that you're not an adult until you're a religious initiate. I > haven't worked out all the ramifications (e.g. the Lhankor Mhy apprentice). I'm certainly not inclined to get zealous about this issue; rather I think the published information is so vague as to admit no definitive conclusion either way. Perhaps it needs to be Gregged. The only clear reference I find is in the RQ Magic Book, of all places, which states that "it is a traditional sign of adulthood", which is still some way short of an absolute requirement. I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10). This leaves open the question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so, whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation. Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is possible. But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great. A back-of-an- envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success. What happens if he fails? Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year, and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)? It seems more likely to me that certain `traditional' clans would require initiation to a _particular_ deity (most obviously, Orlanth or Ernalda, according to chosen path), while in more `modern' clans it would be (at least theoretically) optional. The requirement `be initiated to a diety, any deity' seems a little artificial to me, given the differing importance of different deities, and the differing meanings of initiation into them. (Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.) One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this requirement, for their particular `family' god. This would make some sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only secondarily into clan or tribe. This is a bit rough on people not wanting to follow the family tradition, mind you. On the subject of bloodlines: someone stated that tribal kings had to belong to particular royal bloodlines; anyone have a reference to this in published material? (I found one declaring this to be the case at the Kingdom level, but not that I could see otherwise.) > BTW, I'd consider it sad if Griffin Island is let go out of print. It could be rereprinted as G, Mountain, right? I'm sure nobody much would mind it being `deblanked'. Alex. --------------------- From: merig@dsi.unimi.it (Giorgio Merigo , Jorge) Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE! Message-ID: <9404060851.AA01428@pluto.sm.dsi.unimi.it> Date: 6 Apr 94 11:51:37 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3528 Hello After more than a year and a lot of very interesting articles, I am finding out I can read 1 every 10 I receive, so please now I would like if someone "powerful" enough would UNSUBSCRIBE ME from this mailing list I have gotten the address at soda.berkley so I will keep in contact. Thanks Giorgio -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JJJJJ ! J ! Giorgio Merigo (Jorge) J ooo r rr ggggg eeee ! Corso Campi 3 J o o rr g g e e ! 26100 Cremona J o o r ggggg eeeeee ! 0372-413988 J J o o r g e ! JJJ ooo r gggg eeee ! merig@ghost.sm.dsi.unimi.it ! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= loves Role P.Games (RuneQuest,C.of Cthulhu, etc.) & Classical Music =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Sub-cults? Message-ID: <9404061028.AA23430@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 6 Apr 94 10:28:28 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3529 Martin: >As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second >or third age development. This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to presume, in Prax and the Wastes. > The same with Humakt. Before that, they > were just what we would call subcults of Orlanth. Sandy: > My failure to concur with this is unfortunately un-backed up > by any evidence for the Bull. However, I submit that the tales of > Arkat and his betrayal provide strong evidence for Humakt being a > separate cult even at the dawn. Why? The Orlanthi regard themselves as being collectively betrayed by Arkat getting Uzzed, not just the Humakti. > Plus Humakt's own mythology, which > places great weight on being separate from Orlanth. Could be merely mythic protestation, of course. I have no idea what the historical truth of this argument might be (does anyone?): but I'm inclined to note that this argument is ridden somewhat by the (in my view) false dichotomy of `sub-cult' vs `entirely separate cult'. There are likely, I should think, to be degrees and shades of distinction between the two, especially before the God Learners got at the cult structures, and turned them into RQ2 cults^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H artificially regular structures. In fact, much the same as I was blathering about associate cults, earlier. Alex Ferguson. --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Dragonewt Weapons and Male Broos Message-ID: <9404061125.AA12832@Sun.COM> Date: 6 Apr 94 11:14:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3530 Hi All Jussi? asked about Dragonewt weapons. They are listed on page 25 of the Glorantha Book (5) of Deluxe RQ3 Set. What do you mean you did not waste your money buying it? Base chance for humans using any dragonewt weapon is 05%. Samarin and Chokin are small throwing weapons that do about the same damage as a dart but have far less APs (2). My guess is that they are made of wood (or possibly bone) and flint rather than metal. Remember that a war dart has a very heavy metal tip, and is sometimes made of solid metal. Multiple Samarin and Chokin can be thrown at the same time, in the smae manner and with the same penalties as for shuriken (=shaken). Minus 10% from all chances for each extra one. The great broo debate. I believe that ALL broo are born male. It has been stated in a number of places that broo are like their fathers andhave no sisters. I also remember reading that they are patrigenic? However (as always) there are a very few female broo. They are NOT BORN as female broo. I can think of two ways in which they are created. 1) A female human (or other) becomes a broo due to taking too many chaotic features, or Thanatar heads etc. 2) Or more rarely a male broo plays around with that Dark Elf stuff that changes your sex. Female broo are quite a fun concept as they are very sought after by male broo as any offspring will be TRUE BROO! Of course broo births are very often fatal for the mother so that female broo try to avoid male broo at all costs. Unfortunately, due to their unnatural fertility if a female broo survives a broo birth she will still be fertile unlike most *normal* host mothers. Also female broo have the same inflated sex drive as their male counter-parts which they need to relieve, however if they mate with any other creature they will gice birth to broo... Thus, female broo (who intend to survive very long) must either have access to very powerful healing on a regular basis or they must relieve themselves but being very careful not to use any thing that might impregnate they. After Sandy's Stove Broo this becomes quite a problem and I would suggest that CLEAN fingers the only form of SAFE SEX for a female broo. The whole thing is mind-boggling and rather distasteful (no doubt this article will raise objections from other readers, I apologize for the subject matter). Still I suppose that any article on broos is likely to be rather sordid. Anyway the above shows why female broos are virtually never encountered and why other sources are obvious wrong when they quote broo as 85% (an Orlanthi All) male. These other sexes do exist but rare sightings have been blown out of all proportion. ----- Lewis ----- --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069) Subject: What do you call a gathering of broos? Message-ID: <01HAUKTF86J49GVG16@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 6 Apr 94 06:56:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3531 An Infection of Broos. --------------------- From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk) Subject: Games Message-ID: <9404061843.AA02121@opus.starlab.csc.com> Date: 6 Apr 94 18:43:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3532 Games: Reading the comments of Rodereick Robertson, David Dunham, and Sandy Peterson, I gather (pun intended) my comments on the amount of time some societyies have available for games are inaccurate. I am willing to concede this point (pending further research on my part). In reply to Roderick Robertson on his comments to Harald Smith: I have heard that lacrosse was played by the Iroquois (native americans) between villages. But many native american groups did not have similar games, and I haven't heard of whole villages (tribes) of Bedouins doing so either. Can others on the RQ Daily scene provide more examples of village (group) versus village games? If not, then I suggest that two examples are insufficient evidence on which to refute Harald Smith's contention. In reply to Eric Robert Jablow: Even if chess exists in Glorantha - and I contend it does not (see my next message on games) - how would Gloranthans possibly know about "Ruy Lopez" or "Scicilian Defense", since neither the player nor the place exist in Glorantha? In reply to Sandy Peterson on his comments to Harald Smith: Where are the "large cities" of the Wastes? Of the Elder Wilds? Tug-o-war in a village seems reasonable, but tug-o-war is rather different than games such as baseball. Also, how about a Gloranthan name for tug-o-war? On a -much- lighter note, I can add one title to the Gloranthan Movie game: Gone With the Wind Lord This movie asks the question, "Can a Lunar (SCARLETT O'Hara) find happiness with an Orlanthi (roving) cad?" - James --------------------- From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk) Subject: Games II Message-ID: <9404061843.AA02136@opus.starlab.csc.com> Date: 6 Apr 94 18:43:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3533 Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball: :-) There are a number of games which use balls, but they can be quite different from each other. Basketball, soccer (football), kickball, tennis, and dodgeball all use a spherical object. But their differences show me that one can start with a common object and end up with vastly different games. So why should Gloranthan games be just like (or incredibly similar to) Earth games? Why not "discover" (create) new ones? They can certainly share a number of attributes without being the same game. As an example, I present to you the game of Empire. This game, popular in the Lunar Empire, uses a board divided into 49 squares which are coloured Red, White and Yellow (see the diagram below). The pieces used are the Goddess, the Emperor, the Magician, the Priest, the General, and two Soldiers. It is a two-player game, and each player begins with a full set of pieces. The object of the game is to capture any six of the nine Imperial (red) squares. Board Layout: R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y R - Y - W - R - W - Y - R Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R This game is related to a Dara Happan game (of the same name), which uses a circular board, divided into five rings of twenty yellow and white "squares", etc. My point it that I think we do ourselves a disservice if we say Empire is merely a variant of an Earth game. Gloranthans will never have heard of our strategy game, and so a reference to it would be like saying to us, "Cricket is just like boogle, only the shape of the ball and the number of players are different." We understand the words of the sentense, but don't get a proper picture of how to play boogle. So, if you like using Gloranthan slang, Gloranthan dieties, Gloranthan geography, etc, then use Gloranthan games and Gloranthan game names. Don't talk about soccer, hockey, caber tossing, lacrosse, jacks, or checkers. Create (and then talk about) Shield Push, Empire, Troll Ball, and Barrel Hop (whatever that is), etc. - James --------------------- From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes) Subject: recognize this severed head? Message-ID: <9404061957.AA01564@Sun.COM> Date: 6 Apr 94 19:53:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3534 I was looking over my copy of Shadows on the Borderland the other day, admiring the back cover art featuring a Thanatar priest, when I noticed that one of the priest's severed heads was wearing glasses. The only reason I can think of for that is that the head is intended to be a likeness of someone. I asked Mike Dawson, who denied having noticed it before and couldn't think of who it would be. I suspect this is one of Uncle Ken's shenanigans. Anyone recognize this head, or have an alternate explanation? --------------------- From: ANDERSJC@howdy.Princeton.EDU Subject: Hybrids, put-downs, chess, etc. Message-ID: <12961BC7A74@howdy.princeton.edu> Date: 6 Apr 94 21:53:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3535 This is being posted for Paul Anderson, on Janet Anderson's account: On Hybrids The point on "the human species" is well taken, but I don't think Glorantha has Linnaean species at all. Another hybrid is Gwalynkus the Good, who reigned in Dorastor c. 150. (D p.6) He is mostly descended from Theyalan humans, but his mother's father is a dwarf, and his father was descended in the female line from a dryad. Now I realize that this may be regarded as exceptional, for several reasons, but I still think it is valid. Gwalynkus reigned in Dorastor, where anything is rather more likely than not to happen, but he is explicitly dated between the God's Age and the Second Council, to say nothing of Gbaji, so his reign is precisely when Dorastor was most normal and everyday. I also admit that this is in _Dorastor_, not the most carefully proofread book ever produced; but Gwalynkus is the major new figure in the history, and was presumably more often checked than the monsters. The description of Gwalynkus does include a lot of "it was said"s, and is probably intended to read like a later myth of a happy reign. But it should be valid data about Gloranthan possibilities, even if only retroactively true. ________ On Wexten It seems clear that many of the Ralian realms are smaller than shown on the political map (e.g. Sentanos). I think Wexten is slightly inland, south of Lake Felster; probably part of the land claimed by Tiskos. ________ A "barrel of Broo"? ("several broo", like "several elephant".) If not, a "plague of broo" is probably best. ________ Putdowns: "He's in bed with the/his Seven Mothers." I leave improvements on this to your imagination. "He's not in our clan anymore; he's a Dead Head [Humakti]" Bystander: "He's intelligent, for a Storm Bull." Irrippi Ontor priest: "A sentient Storm Bull is an oxymoron." Lhankor Mhy pr.: "Worse than that: an ur-oxymoron." [with help (?) from Dennis Hoover] ________ On Chess: Hi, Eric! Eric Jablow suggests that chess be run analogously to combat, with attack and parry being Chess skill, and 'damage' of D3. This is a nice idea, and more widely applicable. He further suggests that 'blows' be simultaneous, to allow for draws. Either White should strike first each 'round', or (preferably) get an initial strike without reply to preserve his advantage. IMHO human cultures should differ more than playing different openings in the same game; their forms of chess should differ as much among themselves as Indian from Persian from Chinese from Modern. If this be granted, where did Modern chess, with its characteristic pieces, arise? In chess as we know it, a king is an indispensible token of the army, and he is defended by a female Hero, mobile fortifications, cavalry, and organized priests. He also has a numerous but weak infantry. This sounds more like the Lunar armies than any other. (The Esrolians would not surrender upon death of the KIng. The Grazelanders (although possible) don't have enough infantry to be pawns. The Sartarites fight on foot.) Trolls are perhaps the second most likely culture; they are female-dominated, and have riding specialists. It this is true, chess would have had to be invented and spread to Orlanthi long ago for Sartarites to now find it acceptable. This leads to the following conjecture: In or just after the time of the Conquering Daughter, the Empire adapted chess to its tactical problems, which at that time were largely trollish. The Lunars are, in practice, associated with the Light Rune, and trolls with Darkness; so this antagonism was stressed. The intended subject may be skirmishes, or may be a small war between Holay and Dagori Inkarth over the land then being organized as Tarsh. White moves first, so the war scenario seems more likely. ________ I am reminded that there was an old comment that Solar soldiers use the Sky Rune as a small unit formation, but Orlanthi use the Storm Rune. I add that while the Yelmish commander is in the center, the Orlanthi leader is the outside point - the one who knows the most Healing is in the center. --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Smelch Message-ID: <199404070234.AA18911@radiomail.net> Date: 7 Apr 94 02:34:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3536 Pam Carlson asked >Does anyone out there have any information on Smelch, other than what's in >the single paragraph in the Glorantha/Genertela books? There's also a single paragraph in RQ Companion: "Dormal set off from Handra late in the year [1580] and the growing bluster of winter forced the fleet to take refuge in Alatan. The island was ruled by a hard and cruel man named Jobar. He tried to kill Dormal and seize his ships. Instead, he was killed and another made king in his place."