Subject: RQ Discussions 26 First Distribution: November 20, 1991 The unidentified article from the last discussion issue was from Paul Reilly. ====================================================================== From: mcwalla@algol.cs.umbc.edu (Mark C Wallace) Subject: RQ discussion 25 Some quick and disorganized thoughts on: Subject: RQ Discussions 25 All opinions are my own, and are phrased somewhat tersely, since I don't know when my family will find me doing this and demand that I do something more important. From: Tim Leask Subject: RQ Digest: Discussion about Shamans and things Spiritual Hi Guys, I just thought I'd try and stimulate some discussion on Shamans and spirits. In my current campaign two PC's have just become Shamans and it's only nowt I realise that not much useful info is given about the Spirit Plane, the Spirit Plane/Mundane Plane interface, Shamans and their fetchs etc. etc. This is indubiably the understatement of the wane. I fear a well played shaman almost as much as I fear a sorceroror. They are immune to almost immune to magic, due to their fetch, can scout any terrain, and are ungodly enchanters and summoners. This is only the beginning of the problem. In my campaign currently, becoming a shaman means that the character can no longer be played, and may never leave his tribe. A far more reasonable solution would be to work out the metaphysics of the spirit plane, as Mr. Leask suggests. > I've introduced two new skills Spirit Sense and Spirit Movement. Spirit sense is excellent. One of our problems with spirit combat is that since spirit movement is POW m/round, and spirit senses extend to POW m, there is no chance for surprise (detectability = POW as well, from my reading of the rules). However, the rules do say that the spirit plane is confusing to the uniniated. Spirit Sense would simulate this, without stepping on the toes of the grand shamans. Spirits would have spirit sense at 100% naturally. Shamans would now have to worry about what was coming their way, spirit scouting would be possible etc. I'm not sure whether success at this skill should permit you to see the spirit, or to identify its type. Perhaps a spirit lore skill?? A variation mundane sight should be introduced to solve the spirit scout problem. We've always wondered how much of the mundane plane a spirit can see. Can a shaman send a spirit scout forward to make a map of the enemy castle/encampment/etc? What senses does a spirit have? If sprits have a mundane sense skill, this limits their abilities as scouts to locating large congregations of spirits (often assoiciated with temples or magic sites) and determing if there is a guard on the other side of this door. Spirit Movement determines how well one moves when discorporate. The better the skill the faster one is able to move and manoeuvre, but speed is also a fuction of POW. I don't see a pressing need to change the current rule that spirits have a movement rate equal to their POW. next problem I'm trying to deal with is Spirit Combat between disembodied spirits. I've come up with the following rule. Again, why is the current rule of a 10 point pow difference unsatisfactory? A discorporate Shaman may not return to his body while engaged in spirit combat. Although I agree that the Shaman's ability to teleport out of combat is pretty powerful, this ability seems so innate to shamanic power that I would leave it. I would however implement the suggestion that the return leaves a vapour trail. I think that that notion occurs in shamanic literature (might be interesting to check with Greg on this). If a shaman is reduced to 0 MP in spirit combat while discorporate then he is captured by the attacking spirit (this is my interpretation) You are correct. The body of the PC is sustained by the Fetch, but the fetch is unable to reanimate the body. Essentially, unless a rescue mission is mounted (can you see adventure hint? I thought you could), the Shaman is doomed to starve to death. This is the result of extreme ineptitude on the part of the Shaman, since he can return home at any time his MP drop below 4. If this does occur, the Shaman's friendly ancestors should inspire the tribe by dreams and visions to rescue him. The nature of the fetch isn't fully explained in RQ3 - is it a dis-embodied spirit ? The Fetch is a disembodied spirit, allied to /friendly with the Shaman. In most cases in my world it is an archetypical totem spirit associated with the tribe. Other friendly ancestral spirits can use the Fetch as an anchor buoy to lock on to the shaman's position and assist him. Other Shamanic questions. Have you noticed the exponetial increase in Shamanic POW once the fetch reaches a certain level?? Once Fetch pow is greater than 31 no mortal can affect the shaman with a spell. The shaman is now free to keep his POW very low, say around 10, which ensures a very good POW gain check. Now the Fetch grows enourmous, and the shaman begins enchanting items he or she doesn't need, just to get rid of the POW. How do you all limit the POW of a fetch? ====================================================================== From: paul@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Variant Rules 1. Power Gain In standard RQ, while various people start with varying POW, the crucial "probability of POW gain" is the same for everyone. No, the probability of a POW gain is actually greater for the individual swith the lower POW. The function which determines the POW gain is the same. In most of the fantasy literature and also in the mythic sources (both Earth and Glorantha) their is apparently quite a bit of variation in people's magical ability, which stays with them all their lives. Thus the youngster who shows great potential and eventually becomes a great mage/hero/etc. I think this is represented by INT, not POW, but I see your point. A rule change to reflect this: Change the Pow gain roll from (Species Max - Current POW) * 5% to (Starting POW - Current POW + 10) * 5% Which implies that a character with an 18 starting POW, has a POW gain roll of 50%. FAR TOO HIGH. I could agree perhaps with (SPOW -CPOW)*5%, which would implement the potential to which you refer above, leaving ample room for characters to retrain/increase their starting POW. This also ensures the specialization into Priest/Lord tracks, and makes life somewhat easier for thieves, who are cursed with a POW gain roll. 2. Magic Point rate recovery This is something that I've thought about alot lately and come to no firm conclusion. I am interested in a bunch of variants, but I'll just give one now and get some comments on it, hopefully. Your case is well argued, and one which I have often considered. I am planning at some point in the future to run a campaign wherein the dead place in Prax begins to expand, and MP recovery is not generally possible in 90% of the earth. Temples would work powerful magics to maintain the life of their sanctuaries. Shamans would resort to borrowing magic from spirits, which would travel to the well of souls to regenerate mp, and sorcerors could use a combination of the two. I think it would retress the dilemma which you've pointed out. In the campaign, this will be brought on by some cosmological connivings by the gods/powers which have gone wrong, and one of the tasks of the heroes will be to restore Ernalda/life to Glorantha. Let me kno if anyone playtests this for me (SMILE) --> Paul Reilly Another idea that I had for variant RQ is loosely based on folklore and "common sense". This is to have "spirit magic" learned as in RQ II with most spells Unfocussed on Self and Focussed on Others, with Focussing as a separate skill. I like the notion of spells unfocussed on self, focussed on others, but I dislike treating these as abilities; they should remain spells/charms which are learned. How would the focussing skill be used? Disruption and other offensive spirit magic spells would be very difficult without signficant skil in the focus skill. This system could fit in well with a personality system as described above Thus a Brave individual could easily learn Fanaticism (and eventually how to affect others with it)... I like the personality system in PENDRAGON, and want to add it to RQ. I think that it would be interesting if your personality modified your chance to learn or perform spells, but it seems a great deal of complexity. Some more suggested rule or interpretation changes: DOMINATION: In RQ III this went away with the advent of the Control, Command, and Dominate spells. Spiritual entities are incomplete, and lack will, therefore can be controlled. Your point is well taken however with regard to dominate. In my world that spell (DOMINATE HUMAN) is part of the greater arcana, which may never be taught to any but Magi, who usually must wrest control of the spells from weaker Magi. > sorcerors and priests summoned hapless POW and INT spirits and Yep, this is a problem. Ergo, summon and control POW and INT spirits are also part of the greater arcana. After playing with both sets of rules, I am pretty much decided to go back to the idea that one of the Laws of Glorantha is that one cannot command the will of another. Without this rule I cannot see why Gods or great Sorcerors like Zzabur need ever bargain with mortals; they could simply Command and be obeyed. The only explanation I can offer is that such control reduces the victim to a zombie/golem like state which is easily spotted. You can't command someone to "act natural" without a complete understanding of what natural is. You can only impress gross commands. For spirit-summoners, I would give them some kind of Confine Spirit spell perhaps a Spirit Pain spell. NEAT Idea. I'll create this and move it to lesser arcana. Confine spirit is a ritual spell, and relies on spirit lore. Spirit Pain needs some refinement. I think it should in some way rely on spirit lore, or perhaps it is merely the threat of eternal confinement. Perhaps the Laws of Glorantha(amended) permit that release from any confinment binds the released to one task, which cannot abrogate free will. COMBAT Special Hits: I kind of liked to old Slash and Crush rules, but they wound up making Slashing weapons optimal. In RQ III, IMpaling is much better than the special knowckback of swords & maces except in certain special tactical situations. Not always. One of the tricks my players learned was that if you struck first, and knocked your opponent back, he lost his hit for that round (often). ASIDE: WHile I'm on the topic, how long does it take to stand up?? If knocked down, how many SR/Actions does it take to stand up again? A minimum of 2 for the change in intent, plus probably 3 for surprise, but that never seemed enough in play, compared to the difficulty encountered by a floored character in heroic or real combat. How about: I suggest the following specials, if you need them Impale: Double damage before penetration Slash: Normal OR lose 1 fatigue blood /MR Crush: double damage for purposes of armour penetration (i.e. DAM*2-ARMOUR/2) Stolen from some game or another. Has the same effects as yours, but is more systematic/logical (?) Fatigue Pretty tedious to keep track of currently. Also, while armor does have a deleterious effect on some skills, I find that it is not really a Fatigue Actually, it is fairly easy to keep track of fatigue if you number strike ranks consequtively from 1 up. Just subtract 1/10th the current strike rank from all combatants fatigue each round. Works out well. My complaint with fatigue is that it is too gross. Five mintes rest will suffice to recover the fatigue from a fulls days forced march. Not the way that either the real world, or the movies work. Instead I suggest three different fatigue stats. ENDURANCE: lost for long term activities like forced march. Regenerates at 1 point/hour of rest d4/hour sleep. FATIGUE: canot be higher than Endurance. Lost for fighting and intense emotional effort. Recovered as per normal now. STUN: Short term confusion/dizziness/disorintation, exhaustion. Caused by 1) casting any spell (1mp in spell = 1stun point), 2) damage, (1 point of damage=1stun point) Stun is calculated without any reduction for armour, double limb limits, etc. magical protections subtract. When Stun points are greater than FATIGUE, character is reeling and unable to act. STUN is recovered at d4/sr. for 10SR. This rule limits sorcerors and priests, and tank fighters. Besides it just feels right; casting a 50sr spell should leave you in shock for a round, and taking 100points of damage from a giants club should leave your head ringing, no matter that you've parried well. ----------------------- Mark C. Wallace Noonaut ====================================================================== From: "Loren J. Miller" Subject: Shamans and Spirits Tim Leask asked about Shamans and Fetches and other things spiritual. There were a few points to his article, and I'll tackle them in order. 1. I don't think that adding a new skill "Spirit Sense" is a good idea. If it works just like Scan except it uses the Shaman's Second Sight, then it should use the Scan skill, and likewise for any Searching on the spirit plane. After all, RQ3 Trolls use the Scan skill to "see" using their darksense, don't they? (don't they? I hope they do, otherwise I'm making a fool of myself.) 2. Speed of moving spirits, I think MP (temporary POW) is fine. (I like the idea of MPx10 or POWx10, though, and think that spirits with an elemental affiliation might be able to move through that element at the higher speed. Besides, it's very genre for primitive and horror movies, as shown in the Evil Dead and Conan movies.) 3. Spirit combat between discorporate spirits. How about a slight mod of the existing rules? If a spirit is engaged in combat with another spirit, the spirit with more MP at that time can flee the other. The chasing spirit must make a [Track | Scan] roll to follow the fleeing spirit's path. 4. Discorporate Shamans can *not* return instantly to their bodies. They must use the standard rules for travel on the spirit plane, moving at POW or MP meters per strike rank. I think that allowing shamans to travel instantaneously when other spirits can't would be a major mistake. Also, the Tlingit stories about shamans (presumably Stafford's basic source) repeatedly describe the long, arduous journeys that shamans must make to the magic places they seek and back home from those treacherous magic places. There is no concept of a silver cord or other modern ideas about astral projection in the stories of the shamans of the gobi desert. Rather those who venture into the ancestral lands venture into peril which may prevent them from returning, the bones of many shamans which litter the ground below them will attest to that. 5. What happens to shamans who go to 0 MP in spirit combat? What happens to anybody who loses spirit combat with a spirit? If the spirit is a type that would possess a body then it will possess the body, otherwise it will go away. Any time a living body is just lying there without a spirit in it any nearby spirit can notice the empty vessel and go in. Shamans are lucky because they have fetches which inhabit their bodies when they go onto the spirit plane, thus keeping nearby spirits from jumping in and taking over. Fetches can also defend against spirits that have beaten their shaman. So what happens to the shaman? Once his MP have regenerated he will need to find his way back through the spirit plane and return to his body. If the spirit that beat him can trap or imprison him somehow he may never return to his body. Can you say "Quest"? 6. What is a fetch? I understand a fetch as a spirit which is the shadow, or superconscious, part of the shaman. It is actually part of the shaman's own soul. Where does it hang out? Around the shaman, occasionally you can see it as an indistinct or fleeting image of the shaman's totem animal. Cormac, in the RQ3 Magic Book, saw his shaman's fetch as a huge cobra. When the shaman leaves his body the fetch keeps watch over it to guard against threats from the material plane. The rules do not say that a fetch can animate the shaman's body, but I suppose it's possible. The fetch, however, would start all skills at default or worse, since it has no experience. A shaman, if he was able to trust his guards and instructors, might be wise to let his fetch receive training (minimally, how to speak the local language) while he was off in the spirit plane. You also might want to limit the time that a fetch can animate the body, perhaps to 5 minutes per POW at first, and maybe later up to 1 hour per POW. whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "I don't have to practice what I preach 'cause I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." -- Book of the SubGenius ====================================================================== From: oshaughj@project4.computer-science.manchester.ac.uk Subject: CONVULSION OF THE TRILLION TENTACLES. Some of you may remember a year or so ago the convention Conjunction of the Million Sphere's here is England. It was summer 1990 (??) and Greg Stafford went to auction off the Gloranthan Encyclopedia. Well, Conjunction is to be repeated under the name of Convulsion. It will be on the weekend of 24th July 1992 (I think) here in England. Greg Stafford will again be appearing and maybe Sandy Petersen. Anyway, here's the (sort of flyer). If anyone wants any further information, either write to the address given or e-mail me and I will tell you all I know. "The convention is residential and is limited to 150 places - 100 residential and 50 non-residential, on a first-come first-served basis. For residential membership, room hire is expected to be no more than 15 pounds sterling per night (including breakfast), but we require a 10 pounds sterling deposit now. Non-residential membership can be upgraded to residential at a later date for 5 pounds sterling, and this will include the 10 pounds sterling deposit. Since we have limited humbers, supporting membership does NOT reserve you a place, but does entitle you to all our publicity material, , PR's, etc. In order to sponsor Greg's trip, we have created the Etyries fund, for which we will gratefully accept any donations (either money or games for auction). If we get enough, we would like to invite Sandy Petersen as well! Becuase of the Bar opening hours we have decided to limit attendance to those who will be aged 18 or over at the time of the covention. There will be no admission on the door, so please book as soon as possible to guarantee a place. Return the form below to: CONVULSION, 8 Birkbeck Road, Ealing, London, W5 4ES, ENGLAND. { Don't actually use this form, it just tells you what info to send } Name : _____________________ Membership Badge Name : _______________ Supporting 5 pounds ster Address : __________________ Non-residentaila 20 pounds ____________________________ Residential 15 pounds ____________________________ (must include room deposit) Postcode : _________________ Room deposit 10 pounds Phone No : _________________ (non refundable) I would like to run the following game : ETYRIES donation : ________________________________________ __________________ ________________________________________ (thank you kindly Guv'nor) Special requirements (food, creche, etc.) I enclose a cheque/Postal ________________________________________ Order for _______ pounds ________________________________________ made payable to "Convulsion 92" I will be 18 or over on the 24th July 1992. I agree to have my membership information stored on a computer database. Signed : _____________________ Sorry for any typos, I've had a bit to drink as I typed this in. See Ya, Jamie ====================================================================== From: "Loren J. Miller" Subject: For discussion: Contest of skills and Seaworthiness I was just reading the RQ rules to reacquaint myself with them and noticed the way that the Sneak and Listen, or Hide and Scan, skills were opposed. Namely, the stealth skill is rolled, and if it is made, then it is subtracted from the perception skill to determine the effective skill level in the perception skill. Is this a general way of resolving contests in RuneQuest? For instance would it work with a locksmith's devise skill for a lock and the devise skill of the thief trying to pick it? i.e. Roll the resistive skill, if you make it subtract your resistive skill from the motive skill, producing an effective motive skill. And speaking of the Seaworthiness rules in RQ, I think the seaworthiness numbers are rather low. If you have a cheap sea captain (with a skill around 50-70%) he's going to sink his boat every second or third day he has a strong wind. That's cheap all right. How can somebody who sinks 90% of all cargos he carries continue to call himself a captain? Also, if you had a large armada of 500 boats or so, you would lose a few every single day to even mild winds. It just seems highly unrealistic to me. And another thing, if seaworthiness determines whether a ship stays afloat or not, what do Structure Points do and why should a captain care about them? whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "I don't have to practice what I preach 'cause I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." -- Book of the SubGenius ====================================================================== From: oshaughj@project4.computer-science.manchester.ac.uk Subject: Convulsion '92 >From David Hall (care of oshaughj@p4.cs.man.ac.uk) : Having gained access to the digest via the good offices of Jamie O'Shaughnessy here are a couple of items that might interest some of you: Convulsion '92 This is a role-playing games convention which is being held at LeicesterUniversity, England, on the weekend of the 24th/26th July 1992. It's a small convention, with some 150 places available, half of which have alreadybeen filled (there's no admission on the door). The convention should be of some interest to Runequesters and Chaosium junkies. Firstly, Greg Stafford is the Guest of Honour, with Sandy Petersen being the reserve guest. Though if we get enough cash and games donated to our Etyries Fund, Sandy will be invited as well - and so far it's looking very good! Also in attendance will be Ken Rolston (the new editor of RQ at Avalon Hill), Oliver Dickinson (author of the Griselda stories), Jon Quaife (currently working on a Sartar pack), Dave Morris (Ex-Editor of Runerites in White Dwarf, and now a Tekumel convert) and Marcus L. Rowland. Secondly, the highlight of the convention will be an ambitious Gloranthan Freeform game set in Boldhome during the Lunar occupation. Around 70 players will make up the various factions within the city, and there will be a host of umpires to adjudicate the consequent mayhem, as well as to chivvy along the plot. Full background information, history and maps will be provided, the game is planned to last about eight hours. Thirdly, there will be an auction of games material. Greg Stafford and Sandy Petersen have both promised to donate items (at Conjunction in 1990 Greg's Gloranthan Encyclopedia went for 290 pounds (~ $475!). Already donated are original copies of Wyrms Footnotes 4-6 & 9-14, Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror, Borderlands, Big Rubble & Griffin Mountain. Lastly, we hope to release a limited edition (numbered and signed) of Oliver Dickinson's Griselda stories, as well as the 2nd edition of the New Stafford Compendium. Details from: Steve Thomas 8 Birkbeck Road Ealing London W5 4ES England Or via the Tales of the Reaching Moon editorial address: 21 Stephenson Court Osborne Street Slough Berkshire SL1 1TN England Worldwide RQ I noticed that a while back MOB rashly claimed that per capita there were more Swedish RQers than Maltese RQers. I'm not sure how MOB came to such a conclusion, and for anyone who is interested, here is the latest version of the worldwide sales of Tales of the Reaching Moon upon which it was based. Due todifferences in language, and different advertising or distributors, it cannot really be seen as indicative of the whole RQ playing public. Certainly I amwoefully short of French and Japanese subbers (each country has sold 10,000 copiesof their own-language rules), and the Spanish (who reportedly have their own translation) remain a complete enigma, the Charg of the RQ world. Are they poisedto invade over the Pyrenees in an invincible horde? Zine Population Ratings Country Copies Sold Popn. Rating Population (m) Sweden 80 9.52 8.399 Norway 10 2.39 4.187 Finland 30 6.08 4.932 Denmark 1 0.20 5.127 United Kingdom 195 3.42 57.065 Ireland 2 0.56 3.544 France 10 0.18 55.870 Belgium 1 0.10 9.930 Netherlands 1 0.07 14.760 Germany 17 0.28 61.200 USA 35 0.14 246.329 Australia 41 2.52 16.249 New Zealand 2 0.61 3.280 Japan 1 0.01 122.091 Israel 1 0.23 4.369 Malta 3 8.72 0.344 430 0.70 617.676 Can anyone tell me why RQ is seemingly so unpopular in its country of origin? The New Stafford Compendium MOB was also being slightly *economical with the truth* when he stated that this Compendium listed *everything* Greg Stafford has ever written. Unfortunately, mistakes were made - as well as the inevitable omissions. Therefore, can anyone help us with our 2nd edition, by letting us know of any other obscure sources of Greg Stafford's published writings? We're interested in anything by him, RQ, Pendragon, stories, or non-gaming stuff. In addition, we're interested in cult write-ups, this time by anyone, whether unofficialor not, just as long as they have been published. Though I'd better quickly add that cults published in an APA zine, or similar set-up, probably won't beput in. What we need is the title, author and co-authors, the publication and itsnumber, and the date of publication. A photocopy of the article or cult, where possible, would also be useful. Please contact me via Jamie on the Net, or directly through the Tales of the Reaching Moon editorial address. ====================================================================== From: Richard.McAllister@Eng.Sun.COM (Richard McAllister) Subject: Re: RQ discussion 25 > 2. Magic Point rate recovery > People feel that (spirit & sorcerous) magic is cheap. Since I usually run > "life experience" campaigns rather than "dungeon runs" the action usually > takes place on a day-to-day, week-to-week, or year-to-year basis. This means > that for every fight people cast their magic freely, rather than having to > make a tactical decision along the lines of "use mana now or save it for > later?" Also generally there are sufficient MP's left to Heal all damage, > and since they are back the next day we rarely see anyone wounded at the > beginning of a fight. Thus to fit in with the time scales I like to work > with, I'd like to see a slower recovery rate of some sort. It's easy to fix this one without fiddling with the rules; just have two fights in one day. For example, bring out a random encounter (hungry beast, etc.) to fool people into using up their MPs and then hit them with the real fight later in the same game-time day. Remember, MPs don't come back while "on the move". This is one of the reasons Gloranthan trolls make such great bad guys -- the obvious Troll way of attacking is to send in a bunch of trollkin to spook the PCs into using up their spells, then send in the second wave of real trolls to win. Of course, the trollkin in the first wave all get wiped out, but who cares about trollkin? Certainly not trolls... Of course, you can't do this ALL the time, since then the players learn never to use up all the MPs on the first fight -- so sometimes the first fight should be the real one! Now, we did change MP recharge to 1 MP per hour instead of the nominal 1/4 POW per 6 hour rate. This isn't much of a change (even a POW 21 character still gets all MP back in one day of rest) but it's a lot easier to calculate (party can just say "we rest after lunch for 1 hour; everybody put back a MP") and it somewhat lessens the pain of being a low POW character (the dreariest part of RQ is trying to get those first few POW checks after having to do an initiate DI...) ====================================================================== The RuneQuest(tm) mailing list is a courtesy of Andrew Bell. All opinions and material above are the responsibility of the originator, and copyrights are held by them. Unless specified in the specific article, all RQ Digest material is freely redistributable on a not-for-profit basis as long as author credit is included. RuneQuest is a trademark of Chaosium, Inc. Send submissions, mailing list changes, requests for old article lists, etc. to: bell@cs.unc.edu ...!mcnc!unc!bell Request old articles by volume number and issue number.